Curse

alchohol · Jun 20, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

Will people please stop saying a vamp will cure it. As i posted before we had a war stuck but the rest of the team needed heal partys which more then canceled the vamp damage. So we either all died or left him stuck.

Would be handy if Anet incorporated a /death command for stuck players, that couldn't be abused.

XxForgexX · Jun 20, 2006, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I you really want to get into analogies:
If a sprinter trips over his shoe laces in a 100m race, will another runner stop to help him up?

flawed

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I you really want to get into analogies:
If a sprinter in a 100m race gets his foot stuck in an invisible hole in the world, will the rest of the runners stop the race, help him out, and restart the race?

fixed

JR · Jun 20, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxForgexX

fixed

Except 'invisible holes in the world' don't exist in real life, but are a common occurence in Guild Wars. Much like tripping over your shoelaces isn't a issue in Guild Wars.

Mr Urthadar · Jun 20, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

Will people please stop saying a vamp will cure it. As i posted before we had a war stuck but the rest of the team needed heal partys which more then canceled the vamp damage. So we either all died or left him stuck.

So is anyone going to say anything about my point on the ELO ladder or is that just being ignored by the people who just don't want to think about it?

Ahh, GvG is like the real world. Don't expect anyone to do any favors for you. Come prepared and it just isn't a problem. (Of course, I come prepared now that I have read this thread - vamp weapons never crossed my mind).

When they do, consider yourself lucky. One of my favorite lucky moments in GvG is when you wipe your opponent, but their thief is left hanging around the flag stand. Using your opponent's thief to build adrenaline is just fun

.

But we've been in a bit of a GvG slump, so mostly people are using our thief for adrenaline. lol.

FWIW - yeah I'd kill someone stuck in the ground.

ju

sir lockt · Jun 20, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by alchohol

Would be handy if Anet incorporated a /death command for stuck players, that couldn't be abused.

That would result in a major... MAJOR engine rebuilding... because of the minion masters. A dead corpse can be exploited by MM's and such easy suicides would be abuse no1.

If you want to make difference between suicided or normal corpses you will have to reprogram game mechanics... and I think a normal fix would be a lot easier...

kryshnysh · Jun 20, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

Funny that rating is such a big concern in this thread i remember another thread where it was discussed. A poster stated that smurf guilds with leet players but very low rank were ruining his guilds ranking, he had been beaten by like 5 in a week for -20 or more each time. Everyone that i remember jumped him and said quit whining the ladder will fix it. The design of an ELO ladder was said to correct any "false wins or losses". So from the standpoint of a top 100 guild playing EVIL and they get a player stuck there are 2 choices.
You leave him stuck and manage to beat them. 1st you will have no braggin rights since everyone who watches will no how you won. 2nd whatever rating you gain from that match will disappear quickly. Either you will win and get less rating over the next several games to end up with same total; or you will lose a game and lose extra rating and end up with same total.
Now if you were nice enough to kill the stuck player you can still win and have mucho braggin rights. IF you lose to them your rating will still end up in the same place within a few games as if you beat them.

For a guild that does care about rank in an attempt to get into tournaments, it does put you at a competitive disadvantage.

If it happens on or near the last days of the ladder, it won't balance out enough before the ladder ends.

If it happens repeatedly (you kill stuck, opponents don't), it will change your PPG and thus how many games you have to play to get a specified rating (and thus rank). Don't have the time to compensate? Your loss. Older ladders, with more games compensated better for such false wins/losses than the newer shorter ladders from my understanding.

I wouldn't consider stuck players a "tactic" of the type Gaile mentioned, I think that was more along the lines of going through gates that are closed by pre-pathing.

I don't expect other teams to kill our players when stuck, but its nice when they do so, and I appreciate it. Similarly I try to return the favor when I'm in charge.

Stilgar BiH · Jun 21, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Except 'invisible holes in the world' don't exist in real life, but are a common occurence in Guild Wars. Much like tripping over your shoelaces isn't a issue in Guild Wars.

JR you are geting your analogies totaly wrong man.

in the end u cant force people to fair play. sometimes teams are going to do the right thing and kill the stuck guy sometimes they wont. only thing that can be done is Anet fixing the bug

.

and another thing, competitvnes and fair play/sportsmanship are not mutualy exclusive things. becouse its world cup time im gonna use a football analogy. Take for example Totti and Ronaldinho. both are highly talanted and highly competitive players who want to win. Totti (well most of ITalian players

) dives all the time, when he gets tackled fakes a injury and terrible pain hoping the player gets a card, throws cheap shots when referee is not watching etc. Ronaldinho does none of those things, he plays it fairly but still is just as competitve as any other player and on top off it most sucesfull one.

JR · Jun 21, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stilgar BiH

JR you are geting your analogies totaly wrong man.

Uhm, not really. In order for it to be a viable analogy, the examples have to actually be realisticly comparable.

However this track of analogies can lead anywhere, they are merely another way of expressing an opinion. A tad pointless.

yuna of spira · Jun 24, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

I didnt read almost any of the posts in the 5 pages....but I'm assuming no one has posted about this yet. My example and code that I go by is the "playing to win" philosophy created by David Sirlin which pretty much sums up that you are either playing to win.....youre you are just playing, and that anyone who feels that they are playing to win but wont take advantage of something the other person didnt get is a scrub (which is a bad thing). here's the article if anyone wants to read it.....it continues to be an inspiration to me on what is "cheap". http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm

Tortoise · Jun 24, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

There are, in my humble opinion, a lot of philosophical problems with the entire 'play to win'-ethos. I won't get into all of them but in the light of the current discussion I would like to point out that 'play to win' fails to give any advice for the individual when faced with the question if a certain tactic X is allowed to be used or not.

Allow me to explain: even Sirlin saw to what extravaganzies his theory could lead and thus made a couple of exceptions. He excluded the use of third party programs (which is much more problematic for his theory then you would think at first sight) and he also made an exception when a community would deem a certain tactic overpowered. These exceptions open up the possibility of a slippery slope that totally annihilate any decisive power the 'play to win' philosophy has.

Why? Given a certain tactic X the player is not always allowed to use it. Sirlin gave the example of a certain character being excluded from tournaments in Streetfighter. When an individual player discovers a new tactic it is unclear whether he has stumbled upon a very good tactic or a tactic that is just ridiculously overpowered. Whether the overpowered tactic is allowed for competive use is eventually a choice the community has to make but it is not a call the individual player himself can make. The decision whether a certain tactic is allowed is therefor not solely decided by the 'play to win' credo.

The above is just an example. Whether or not a certain tactic or action can be defended through 'play to win' is in a large part determined by the view from the gaming community about that tactic. In guild wars this discussion is even more grey. Given the fact there are constant updates the 'status' of tactics is constantly changing. Overpowered tactics simply get balanced out. The underlying principle remains the same though.

This has an important consequence that 'Play to win' doesn't even touch on: we as a community can affect what route we want the game to take. When given the question 'is this tactic allowed in GvG' a simple 'play to win' answer ignores the important aspect a community plays when it comes to shaping a game. In the end it is Anet's responsibility to work out all flaws but in the mean time it is important that we as a community decide what tactics we deem acceptable and which not. If noone deems this issue an issue then why should Anet deem it important?

selber · Jun 25, 2006, 03:03 AM // 03:03

It is really sad what the majority of the people writing here.

Over some things you don't need to talk or discuss. Do what you want, just deal with the consequences.

-Susi (from PnH, - the guild that uses to kill stuck players also in playoff matches).

SaintGreg · Jun 25, 2006, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stilgar BiH

in the end u cant force people to fair play. sometimes teams are going to do the right thing and kill the stuck guy sometimes they wont. only thing that can be done is Anet fixing the bug .

Its perfectly fair play to not kill the stuck player though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuna of spira

anyone who feels that they are playing to win but wont take advantage of something the other person didnt get is a scrub (which is a bad thing).

Being a scrub is not a bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

There are, in my humble opinion, a lot of philosophical problems with the entire 'play to win'-ethos. I won't get into all of them but in the light of the current discussion I would like to point out that 'play to win' fails to give any advice for the individual when faced with the question if a certain tactic X is allowed to be used or not.

Thats not true, Sirlin basically says that yes, it is allowed to be used, unless it completely breaks the game or is clearly illegal. What that means for guild wars, is that you can use tactic X if it is truly powerful, until ANet nerfs it. If a game is a degenerate one, than its the games fault, not the players. Use everything you can to gain an advantage, and if the game changes, find a new overpowered tactic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Why? Given a certain tactic X the player is not always allowed to use it. Sirlin gave the example of a certain character being excluded from tournaments in Streetfighter. When an individual player discovers a new tactic it is unclear whether he has stumbled upon a very good tactic or a tactic that is just ridiculously overpowered. Whether the overpowered tactic is allowed for competive use is eventually a choice the community has to make but it is not a call the individual player himself can make. The decision whether a certain tactic is allowed is therefor not solely decided by the 'play to win' credo.

Not true, whether a tactic is allowed for competitive use is determined by the tournament directors, or in guild wars ladder case, ArenaNet. If they don't explicitly say you can't use tactic X, then its pretty much allowed until they nerf the overpowered tactic, or fix the bug that it exploits. Theres nothing the community can do to outlaw that tactic from being used.

Corn Sword · Jun 30, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Now, our guild DOES care about rank and such, but if we find a glitched player, we will get him un-stuck, simply because its not satisfying to win knowing that the other team was at a serious disadvantage. I agree with Lando, the only reason not to unstick someone is if you can't win otherwise.

Yanman.be · Jun 30, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Whatever happens, happens. You can't count on the other team to do the same thing (BRING VAMP WEAPONS )

Byron · Jul 01, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Twain

It is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them.

The author, not a GWG guy.

Engel the Fallen · Jul 02, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

As I argued many times, I think people apply whatever they feel like to that play to win article. People claim they should use any means to win, then complain about running gimmick builds. With ANET and the nerf bat, nothing is greatly overpowered for more than one season. And if you watch top guilds, they tend to use the overpowered builds to grind rank in these faction seasons.

IMO, as a guild you have two options. Play to win and play for respect. Some things while they will drop an advantage for you, are very respectful for the other team. Two of these things are killing the stuck player if you can, and at season's end if you happen to beat a team on the verge of gaining points, map out or resign so they get the points and are not knocked out of the standings.

Obviously both of these for me would be only used against a respectful guild. If a guild treats me and my guild like crap, they will get no respect from us. If the guild is polite or even silent, I would do either thing for them if it is in my power.

Winnings is the key focus for most in GvG, but being respectful is greater for some.

Patrograd · Jul 02, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engel the Fallen

if you happen to beat a team on the verge of gaining points, map out or resign so they get the points and are not knocked out of the standings.

This is the quickest way to get your guild banned and is strictly against the terms of everything GvG should be about. There is never a valid reason for deliberately throwing away a win in rated GvG, it is ladder manipulation.

Quote:

As I argued many times, I think people apply whatever they feel like to that play to win article. People claim they should use any means to win, then complain about running gimmick builds. With ANET and the nerf bat, nothing is greatly overpowered for more than one season. And if you watch top guilds, they tend to use the overpowered builds to grind rank in these faction seasons

i think this misunderstands the nature of the complaint. If you want to run a gimmick build that exploits some unforseen skill imbalance, that's your business, you do so and take the consequences when the build gets nerfed. The complaint isnt against the teams running the builds, the complaint is to ANet to fix these broken skill balance issues and season length issues so that we are once again in the position where the ladder is a proper reflection of a team's ability

TheOneMephisto · Jul 02, 2006, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Just saying, a shoutout to Ryse A from MH, who killed Evil's stuck assassin in their first game. Nice to see that some people are still honorable. Also, MH still won (go AMERICA!).

JR · Jul 02, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Just saying, a shoutout to Ryse A from MH, who killed Evil's stuck assassin in their first game. Nice to see that some people are still honorable. Also, MH still won (go AMERICA!).

They may have won the battle, but they lost the war.

Lando Griffen · Jul 04, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Just saying, a shoutout to Ryse A from MH, who killed Evil's stuck assassin in their first game. Nice to see that some people are still honorable. Also, MH still won (go AMERICA!).

My point exactly about how if you know that you're good, you have no reason to leave 'em there. Call it an opportunity if you want, but that's the same as picking on people who are weaker. Whatever you accomplish by doing that, it still makes you a little b**** in my book. So anyway, hats off to Ryse. Bad sportsmen in guildwars are bad sportsmen in life, and bad sportsmanship is for people who can't win.